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2006.06.12

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Duncan

Noel Vera,

I couldn't get through Hail Mary; it may be the only movie I've ever left before it ended. Jesus of Montreal was better -- the moviemakers had done their homework at least -- but still kinda tedious.

I think my big problem with these movies is that they're all about "Christ" (the pre-existent supernatural being who comes to earth and walks around in a human body, driving it to its death), not "Jesus" (the human body, a first-century Jew about whom we know very little except his death). Since I'm an atheist, I have little interest in pre-existent supernatural beings; I'd rather see a story about the human being. How about a horror film of "The Exorcist" kind -- the human being's terror as the spirit that has possessed him rides him to his death?

In your interesting overview of the Christ movies you wrote, "Gibson dwells so much on physical suffering that the (I would say far greater) psychological and spiritual suffering--the despair and sense of abandonment Christ must have felt (one line asking why he's been forsaken is scarcely enough) is left
unexpressed." Well, one line asking why he's been forsaken is all he's given in the gospels, after all, and it's dubious -- both Luke and John replaced it with more upbeat versions: in Luke, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"; in John, he entrusts his mother to the Beloved Disciple's care, says "I'm thirsty" (but solely in order to "fulfil Scripture"; John's Jesus hungers and thirsts only after righteousness); and murmurs, "It is finished." But Mark's and Matthew's Psalm quotation ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is the opening line of the 22nd Psalm) may not be authentic either, especially since they both put Jesus' followers a safe distance from the cross.

The gospels' Jesus doesn't suffer very much -- on the contrary, he's a party guy, unlike the ascetic John the Baptist: wine, food, loose wimmin washing his feet with their tears and
drying his feet with their hair, and even on the night of his arrest he was in a rather compromising position with a scantily clad young man (Mark 14.53). He died on the cross rather quickly, compared to most crucifixees, and the cross was (not just according to the gospels but to all these movies) his goal all along, unlike the thousands of other Jews who died on crosses in those days. Unless you're taking the position that for a pre-existent supernatural being, just wearing flesh for thirty years was an ongoing torment, I don't quite see what suffering, physical or emotional, you had in mind.

One of my favorite South Korean movies, "A Single Spark," is about a sweatshop worker, Jeon Tae-Il, who burned himself to death in 1970 as a protest against the awful conditions in which he and his co-workers labored. Check it out if you ever have the chance. Self-immolation is a Buddhist, not a Christian gesture, but what moves me about this movie is that it's about the suffering of real human beings. The suffering of gods, even if they existed, just doesn't bother me much.

Noel Vera

Ah, but I suggest in that line you quote what Scorsese, Ferrara, and Woo provide--the psychological state of abandonment and loss the man must have felt. I never suggested the Gospels provided it, or should. That's something a work of fiction, something like The Last Temptation, is better suited to dramatize, don't you think?

I'm not a fan of The Exorcist, incidentally--well made 'boo!' film, I think, is about it. Actually, we don't get much of the girl's point of view, a serious failing I think; she's pretty much a victim, someone forced to do what she does; the demon himself is very sketchily characterized. Give me Rosemary's Baby anytime, where you can see the protagonist/victim's psychological state very clearly, at every point in the film. Even the people around Rosemary (Cassavetes included) are carefully delineated, an excellent and varied shopping list of human evil, I would say.

Gods, demons, humans, I'll empathize with any of em, if the telling is good enough; a 'strictly humans' policy would leave out much of cinema's fantasies, of which Last Temptation could very well be considered a member (if you like).

And yes, Single Spark's very good. Check out Lino Brocka's films, if you can--I believe the director admires his works.

Duncan

On gods, I agree with Terry Pratchett's character Granny Weatherwax: even if they exist, believing in them only encourages them.

It seems that you're confusing again the question of who, or what, the Christ story is about. Christ (the supernatural being who descended to earth on a Mission from God) was not abandoned by Yahweh. His goal was the cross all along.

If Jesus (the human being possessed by Christ) knew, as the gospels, Christian theology, and these movies agree he did, that he was supposed to be crucified to die for the sins of humanity, then again there is no reason why he should have felt abandoned -- certainly not by Yahweh, to whom he had a hotline, and not even by his followers, who he knew would fall away at first but later would rally back to the cause. Having the nails driven in would hurt, of course, but look at the rewards: resurrection, sitting at the right hand of Absolute Power (which, we know, corrupts absolutely), and sending the bulk of humanity to Hell to be tortured forever. So where's the abandonment, the loss?

In order to make these stories work, you'd have to find a way to reconcile the Christian claims both that Jesus' crucifixion was Yahweh's plan and act, and that Jesus' crucifixion was a tragic or evil act by human beings, a rejection of his mission and divine status. I don't see any of them doing so. What would have happened if Jesus hadn't been crucified? If Jesus didn't expect to die, then the gospels (and these movies) are serious distortions, even falsifications, of his career, but what *was* he expecting? That Yahweh would send in the troops to prevent his arrest? That all of Israel and the Romans would fall at his feet to adore and follow him? (And if so, where to?)

Again, I don't get any sense of what Jesus' mission otherwise was supposed to be. It doesn't seem that most Jesus fans even understand the question. Certainly these movies don't.

Buzz

Unless I overlooked 'em above, I'm surprised no one has mentioned JESUS OF MONTREAL or THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL.

Thom

I don't have a favorite JC movie, Filmbrain. They tend be preachy and usually end the same way. Based on what I've read in this thread I'll give "Last Temptation" a chance though. Have you've seen Zombie Christ ? I'd love to read your thoughts on that.

Filmbrain

I've not seen Zombie Christ Thom, but it looks deliciously trashy.

Noel Vera

"believing in them only encourages them.
"

That tosses out a lot of great films--Cocteau's Beauty and the Best, Powell's Thief of Bagdad, etc., etc. I can appreciate an aesthetic as stringetn as that, but it's definitely not my style.

"In order to make these stories work, you'd have to find a way to reconcile the Christian claims both that Jesus' crucifixion was Yahweh's plan and act, and that Jesus' crucifixion was a tragic or evil act by human beings, a rejection of his mission and divine status."

But that begs the question--do you need this reconciliation for the story to work? I agree no film has quite done it yet (except Last Temptation puts up the interesting thesis that Christ didn't know, he just got dribbles--like an undercover agent who gets his mission brief in sections, and even when he did get the whole thing, it scared him shitless), but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate their other qualities.

Noel Vera

Zombie Christ looks like a lot of fun too, incidentally.

MINTONmedia

This thread is SOOOOOO dead...but like JC himself, perhaps an overnight in the cave is all that's needed for resurrection, even if in this case, the "overnight" is almost two years.

I just HAD to, however, tell whoever's out there (Hello? Hello? Hmmm...just echoes) that my favorite JC cinefest wasn't a single film but a double bill that played at a multiplex in Pasadena CA, home of that OTHER religious event, the Rose Parade. This theatre had the wonderful audacity to pair up THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST with a revival of THE LIFE OF BRIAN.

Beat that, he shouted to noboby.

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